$0D vs $E6 for 16168625 BBMC - 1993 K1500

Hello,

For the most part I am a total newbie and just getting started. Back in the early 2000's in successfully installed a Haltech E6K on a Turbo RX7 so I am not completely new to EFI tuning. That said, it has been 15 years and this is a lot different. I have TunerPro RT downloaded and setup, and I have downloaded a few bins and XDFs and done some exploring/familiarization but all just sitting in the recliner with the laptop.

My setup: Bone stock 1993 K1500 with 16128225 BBMC memcal. 5.7 TBI, 3.42 gears, 4L60E. AutoProm APU1 USB version from moates. Using TunerPro RT v5. I have installed the G1 header into the ECU and that is where I have stopped.

For now I just want to get a tune going that will run the stock truck reliably. My thinking is that this will allow me to get my feet wet and learn the basics before I start changing stuff. Then the fun starts :-)

The upgrade path, in this order, will be
Phase I: Wideband O2 sensor, new GMPP distributor, new fuel pump (AC Delco EP 381), new Aeromotive FPR

Phase II: New 4.56 gears (front and rear), new catback exhaust, I will change out the stock Y-collector, planing to keep stock exhaust manifolds for now (emissions)

Phase III: GMPP TBI to Vortec intake manifold w/ new Vortec heads, new camshaft (204/214 duration at .50 and .420/.433 lift with LSA at 112).

All of these goodies are sitting in my garage right now :-)

I have spent about 20 hours reading, searching, and planning everything out. I think I have reached the point of no return and now is the time to waive the flag and ask for help. Hopefully you guys will find me worthy and hopefully I have put in enough time to justify starting yet another newbie thread :-)

Despite all the reading, I can't seem to find much on my truck with the BBMC and I really don't understand all this yet. My head is really swimming with all this MEMCAL, BBC, Mask, BIN Definition files, and Datastream Definition files. I am learning though and hopefully it will sink in.


So here is the first question.

1) I need a BIN file to start with. What is your recommendation for BIN and then the associated XDF, and ADX?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-E6 tells me to use $E6 but Dave at Moates recommends $0D. He says he always uses $0D for 4L60E trucks. I do not doubt his recommendation but I would like to understand why this forum says E6 and Dave says 0D.

Thanks Everyone, I am really looking forward to this journey.

AC

There is nothing wrong with E6, but I would also recommend 0D as the mask to use. 0D is better documented and has more work done on the ADX and XDL files. This will make tuning much easier.

Thanks Jim. You pretty much confirmed what I expected. So you are confirming that I can run 0D on my 16168625 ECU? I read a post where EagleMark (I think it was him anyways) said this ECU is more-or-less identical to the 16197427 ECU.

So I think the next question is what BIN, XDF, and ADX files should I use?

Thoughts on 16197427 with:

A218 Trans2 $0D TP5 v250.adx
Advanced $0D TP5 v251.xdf

I found these here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-0D. There are some other options listed but I don't know how to really decode these yet. I would assume that I would not want anything with TP4 since I am using TunerPro5.

By the way, how do these names breakdown? By that I mean what does A218 mean? What does Trans2 mean or Advanced mean? Is v250 version 250?

AC

disclaimer - I'm pretty new to tuning myself but am a programmer and have spent a lot of time looking at the disassemblies/"hacks"

I have a 1993 s10 blazer with the cpi/vortec v6 which also runs the 16168625. I have tweaked my fuel/ve tables, spark advance, shift points, TCC lockup points, shift pressure/timing, line pressure and haven't run into any issues that would make me want to upgrade to OD. I might try it at some point anyway but there hasn't been any apparent problem that OD would solve.

I would suggest just start playing with the bin that's already running your truck. Any changes you make can easily be carried over to OD at a later time, so you aren't losing anything.

First step would be to read and save a copy of your stock bin(not really required if it's already on the net, but might as well do it anyway). From there you can begin exploring the calibration in TP, logging, and making changes.

Once you are more familiar then you will be in a better position to make comparisons when/if you do switch to OD, since you'll have to start with another bin. Granted since you can likely find a bin that ran on the same hardware and is running a newer OS and calibration it should theoretically be "better" to start with, but nobody is going to make any guarantees.

I am running E6_tpv5_v250.xdf and A201_E6_v250.adx from http://www.tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm, which are likely the same that you would find on this site. I haven't tried the transmission specific adx.

Once you have the xdf and your bin loaded, you can download other bins that run on the same OS just to make comparisons. You can also download the the OD xdf and bins and look through those to compare to your bin. You can only have one xdf open per tunerpro app, so you can't directly compare an E6 bin with a OD bin using TP's comparison tools, but opening two instances of the app you can easily compare things like timing tables visibly. You can also copy and paste from one to the other.

jim:

Do you have specific things in mind (or a link) regarding what's better with OD? I have looked through both disassemblies and they are both pretty complete (and share a lot of code). The E6 xdf has been excellent also imo.

Thanks Newellshk. I get what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. Looking forward to hearing what Jim says in response. It probably doesn't matter, I don't think my planned mods are so wild or extreme that it would matter one way or the other. I think I will be able to make good power safely and efficiently with either E6 or 0D.

I have the Moates AutoProm APU1. This device apparently will not read the stock chip so I don't really have a way of getting the stock bin.

You mention OS - does this mean operating system? Is this how I should think of these? E6 is one operating system and 0D is a different one?

Are transmission specific adx files only for transmission information or are they fuel, ignition, and more detailed information on the transmission?

Newell, don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with e6. I have about 300 hrs in my 0D source just commenting and formatting. I was also a programmer. 0D just has more work done on the xdf and ADX side
One thing I found looking at the hac disassembles is that not all the comments are necessarily correct. It takes a considerable amount of time to decipher what is actually going on in the code. I am aware of several tables in for instance $42 code where the comments are backwards in the hac disassembly. EagleMark and I had lots of discussions about what was correct. $0D and $E6 like many GM masks share a lot of commonality because they all function pretty much the same way. $0D just has more time put into it, hence the recommendation. The trans2 ADX is for transmission tuning, get the ADX without the word Trans in it.

I have reached the point where I can take the hac code for $42 and $0D masks and create the source code for a particular BCC. It allows me to see what differences exist between BCCs. I really recommend using the latest BCC available for your particular vehicle.

Agree with everything you said jim. I don't have 300 hours into it yet, but probably 100. I'm curious if you know of any significant inherent operational improvements between $OD and $E6.

MAC:

I believe you need the hdr1 memcal header to read your stock bin:
http://www.moates.net/hdr1-memcal-he....html?cPath=64

That's what i bought with my apu1 and g1.

Yes I meant operating system. $E6 and $OD each refer to a unique data layout(aka mask) of the calibration information within various bins. There can be a many different calibrations, your BBMC being one, that share a common data layout and therefore can all be edited in tuner pro with the same xdf, which defines (hence them being called a "definition") the data layout. I think that in most cases the machine code aka operating system is the same for bins that share a mask, but that's probably not always true since they may have tweaked the code year to year and continued to use the same data layout.

Do you mean assemble it into a binary? If so what assembler are you using?

So Jim, what you are saying is that 0D is the latest BCC available with the best and most up to date comments. If that is the case than I am sold.

I will get the ADX without the word Trans in it. In fact, I will get these 2 files:

A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx (131.4 KB, 299 views)
Advanced $0D TP5 v251.xdf (1.30 MB, 654 views)

Next step will be to know what bin to use. My BBC is BBMC but I don't see a 0D bin file for that BCC.

My truck is 4WD with 3.42 gears....for now :-)

So these look promising:



BDJZ 93 C-K Truck 5.7TBI 4l60e with 3.73 or 3.42 gears.BIN (64.0 KB, 151 views)
BDKP 93 C-K Truck 5.7TBI 4l60e with 3.73 3.08 or 3.42 gears.bin (64.0 KB, 39 views)
BDJY-93-1500-4wd-5.7-4l60e.bin (64.0 KB, 86 views)

I am still confused on the differences between the Trans and non Trans versions. I would like to one day get a higher stall converter so I will probably need to do some transmission tuning. Can you clue me in more on the differences with the trans ADX and "regular" ADX files?

Thanks!

AC

I think that the trans adx sends different aldl mode commands to get transmission specific logging data instead of the normal engine data, but i haven't actually looked at it. The non-trans adx still has some trans info though. Looking through an E6 log it shows brake switch, four wheel drive low, range selector, shift solenoids, and a bunch of TCC stuff, along with vehicle speed and engine speed (so you could calculate torque converter slip etc).

Also note that you can(should?) load the E6 adx and do some logs before you try to start with an OD bin. That might give you some baselines to look at in case there are any initial problems to work out.

No, $0D was the mask, the BCCS are calibrations. The BCCS changed from year to year and model to model. I have an 8625 I pulled from a 93 s10 I used to own, it has a V8 memcal with $0D mask and a stock BCC in it. It works in my truck, but I haven't permanently installed it. Right now I am running a 7747 with $42 mask and asdu as the BCC. I should convert it over, just too busy. It would be a big upgrade for my truck, so I will get to it someday.

I use ASM11 to assemble the source code. It is a two step procedure as the assembler turns the source code into a Motorola format that gets converted to a bin file with another program. I am on my phone, so I don't have the name of the program right now.

Right to the point: I can't find a BIN for BBMC anywhere online. I don't have a hdr1 memcal header to read my stock bin and honestly I am impatient. I need some advice /help on what to do next.

My questions
Do I even need the BIN for BBMC? Can I just load these ADX and XDF files and run off emulation?

A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx (131.4 KB, 391 views)
Advanced $0D TP5 v251.xdf (1.30 MB, 798 views)
By the way I found these here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-0D

If the answer is yes I can, will I be able to burn a chip for a more permanent install? I don't want to drive around with the laptop connected all the time :-)

So here is the backstory in case you were wondering:

Wow it's been a year! Long story short, not long after starting down this road the truck dropped the exhaust valve on the #7 cylinder. I got lucky and it didn't hurt the cylinder or bore. So I went ahead and did a top end rebuild. Truck is now setup rwith: TBI to Vortec intake manifold, new Vortec 906 heads, new camshaft Speed-Pro Emission Legal Performance Camshafts CS-1014R (204/214 duration at .50 and .420/.433 lift with LSA at 112), Innovative motorsports MTX-L wideband O2 sensor, new distributor, new fuel pump (AC Delco EP 381), new Aeromotive FPR. The truck runs and drives but honestly not very well.

So I am back to learning about all this Tuner Pro stuff. I now know that the truck is BBMC with mask $0E and I have done a few trips around my neighborhood messing around with data logging. I understand the whole mask situation a lot better. I don't understand the XDF, emulation, and really don't know what my next steps need to be. I am really confused because everything I find online for 16168625 seems to use $E6 but my truck clearly has $0E (I say this because the only adx file that will connect is an $0E mask).

Emulation still requires that you have a bin on your computer. So you either have to read your current bin after getting the adapter, or start with a different bin. If you start with a different bin you'll want to start with one that matches your setup as closely as possible so you don't have to spend a ton of time just getting back to where you are currently. On that same page you found the xdf/adx you can choose any of those bins and should eventually be able to get it setup properly. "BJLH 94 C-K Truck 5.7TBI 4l60e with 3.73 or 3.42 gears.BIN" might be a good starting point.

You can download as many of those as you want, open them along with the xdf in tunerpro, and using the Compare functionality along with the Tools -> Difference Tool can figure out what settings differ between them.

Once you have a bin that is setup properly for your vehicle you can follow moates's instructions for uploading the bin to the autoprom while it's connected to the ecu in your truck. After that you should be able to turn the key on and get the normal check engine light behavior and go from there. If the check engine light blinks a bunch then you've done something wrong. You can always just pop your current memcal back in so there isn't a huge risk in playing around with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MAC

Right to the point: I can't find a BIN for BBMC anywhere online. I don't have a hdr1 memcal header to read my stock bin and honestly I am impatient. I need some advice /help on what to do next.

My questions
Do I even need the BIN for BBMC? Can I just load these ADX and XDF files and run off emulation?

A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx (131.4 KB, 391 views)
Advanced $0D TP5 v251.xdf (1.30 MB, 798 views)
By the way I found these here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-0D

If the answer is yes I can, will I be able to burn a chip for a more permanent install? I don't want to drive around with the laptop connected all the time :-)

So here is the backstory in case you were wondering:

Wow it's been a year! Long story short, not long after starting down this road the truck dropped the exhaust valve on the #7 cylinder. I got lucky and it didn't hurt the cylinder or bore. So I went ahead and did a top end rebuild. Truck is now setup rwith: TBI to Vortec intake manifold, new Vortec 906 heads, new camshaft Speed-Pro Emission Legal Performance Camshafts CS-1014R (204/214 duration at .50 and .420/.433 lift with LSA at 112), Innovative motorsports MTX-L wideband O2 sensor, new distributor, new fuel pump (AC Delco EP 381), new Aeromotive FPR. The truck runs and drives but honestly not very well.

So I am back to learning about all this Tuner Pro stuff. I now know that the truck is BBMC with mask $0E and I have done a few trips around my neighborhood messing around with data logging. I understand the whole mask situation a lot better. I don't understand the XDF, emulation, and really don't know what my next steps need to be. I am really confused because everything I find online for 16168625 seems to use $E6 but my truck clearly has $0E (I say this because the only adx file that will connect is an $0E mask).

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I have never seen an OE mask that was not a 4L80E.

Hey Fast355. Thanks for the reply. What I can tell you is that my truck has the 4L60E and the Autoprom will only connect in passthru mode with an 0E mask. It's an old truck and who knows what previous owners have done. The BCC is BBMC and there does not seem to be much info on it out there. It figures I would get an odd ball. :confused:

I have some tuning knowledge for you that I will post when I have not been out having drinks with the coworkers. Some starting tips and what not.

BBMC is a E6 mask according to the BCC lockup spreadsheet I got from moates.net years ago. It is a 1993 calibration for a 5.7 using the 16168625 ECM. Given the changes you have made to your engine, I would start with a BJYL bin ($0D mask), then modify the timing tables for the vortec heads. Search the forum, there is a lot of good advice on what to change. Fast355 is being modest, he can help you dial in your rebuilt engine fairly quickly.

@Jim - Everything I've found online tells me that BBMC is an $E6 mask. The funny thing is that that Autoprom won't connect and show data unless I have an $0E adx file loaded.

@New - I am going to order the HDR1 tomorrow. Should have followed your advice a year ago. Still gonna play around with what I can scour off the net before reading the stock BIN. Best case is that ordering tomorrow gets me the hdr1 bu next Wednesday. Sounds like I can always just plug in the stock Memcal and go back to square one so not too much risk.

@Fast - looking forward to starting tips. Very much wanting to learn and then be able to contribute back. Next rounds on me :cheers:

You are doing something wrong with the $E6 adx then. I just checked and the datastream is nearly identical between $OE and $E6. That explains why you can successfully use the $OE adx with your setup. Maybe you should try re-downloading the $E6 adx and trying again. The commands sent to retrieve the data are identical, the return packet size is identical, and nearly all of the layout is the same. As proof you should see constant knock retard using the $OE adx because $E6 reports "FINAL AIR/FUEL VALUE" in byte 56, whereas a real $OE operating system reports "KNOCK RETARD". Without taking too much time to study them that's the only difference that I see.

Hey newellshk, I agree. Something very strange going on here. I have abandoned any worry about what the stock BIN and mask is in my truck for right now. I have shifted my efforts to getting BJYL running under emulation. Things were going OK until I started having weird problems with the tach on the TP dash. I just made a different post about that. I did order the HDR1 from Moates and it will be here next week. Once I get it I will read the stock BIN and update this thread with what is really going on.

Hey newellshk, I tried redownloading the E6 xdf and adx again. I still get the same result. The tuner pro dash just doesn't give information that I can trust. TPS doesn't respond to throttle changes and Desired engine RPM says 0.

Things seem to work okay under emulation with BJYL, Advanced 0D TP5 v251.xdf, and A217 0D TP5 v250.ads.

I also read my stock memcal. Tried running it under emulation with the E6 mask and basically the same. TPS voltage doesn't change when I mash the throttle. Throttle position doesn't change when I mash the throttle. By the way - TPS voltage and throttle position work under emulation with BJYL and 0D. Everything else seems to work as well.

Tried to drive around my neighborhood today. The truck runs awful. No power, will not rev, can't go much faster than 5 MPH. Some data logs attached. Running under emulation.

Looks like I was pretty wrong on this. Pulled down the stock BIN the other day and things looks like it is E6. Learning a lot. All good.