Help with tuning?

I just purchased a few things from moates for burning my own chips for my 95 K1500 Sierra. I’m running the summit 62 cc aluminum heads and lunati’s computer compatible barebones cam with 204/214 duration. On the gmt 400 forum they recommended me here for a bin to burn to my chip. I guess it’s a pretty common setup but it surges a little on idle especially when I’m sitting at a light. I’m running the stock Tbi and manifold with all the emissions stuff. Don’t care too much about that stuff so I’m keeping it. Trying to get whatever mileage and/or performance out of my build as I can. It’s a daily so I’m obviously not turning into a speed demon (also it’s shaped like a brick). Anyway any help would be appreciated. I’ve got the 3.42 rear end which if I can I’d like to keep for now just for monetary reasons. Thank you!

The .bin library has stock .bin files.

Are you asking for a modified .bin file?

Can you post the stock .bin file your using?

dave w

I can once I get all the stuff which should be here in the next week. I just wanted to get it up here on the forum cause I wasn’t sure how busy you guys would be or how long it would take to get to it.

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Originally Posted by dave w

The .bin library has stock .bin files.

Are you asking for a modified .bin file?

Can you post the stock .bin file your using?

dave w

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Sorry for the late response, all my stuff got here last night so I’m planning on getting started tommorrow getting all the software set up. I’ve got 4 chips from moates and the burn 2 And the data logging cable and also the g1 adapter. These are what they recommended for having someone write a bin for me/ with me because I have no experience with tuning though I would eventually like to learn. Maybe not on this truck however as it’s my daily😂.

There might be some misunderstandings about chips.

Performance Chips are all to often configured to empty the wallet of money without any real performance. Some performance chips make OUTRAGOUS claims, like list all engine modifications and the chip is optimal. :laugh:

Stock engines work well with Stock Chips.

Modified engine work well with "Tuned Chips".

dave w

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Originally Posted by dave w

There might be some misunderstandings about chips.

Performance Chips are all to often configured to empty the wallet of money without any real performance. Some performance chips make OUTRAGOUS claims, like list all engine modifications and the chip is optimal. :laugh:

Stock engines work well with Stock Chips.

Modified engine work well with "Tuned Chips".

dave w

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So with my setup that I said above. Making my own chips to plug into the ecu to help pull what I can out of my build is my goal. Could I get a tune written by someone or with the help of someone (I’ve heard good things about you specifically but I don’t know if you do that sort of thing anymore) to accomplish that goal?

Several gearhead-efi members, including myself, can "write" a "starter chip".

A starter is often described as a "best guess" for the fuel and spark tables based on the engine modifications.

For example, Vortec heads are a common engine modification to a TBI Engine. The spark tables for a TBI Engine vs. Vortec Engine are very different. The stock Vortec timing tables are a better match for a TBI engine has been modified with Vortec head, than TBI timing tables. Often a TBI engine that has been modified with Vortec heads requires a modified Vortec Timing Table for optimal performance. The stock Voctec Timing Table is a good "starting" point.

Tuning uses data logs, that have information a tuner uses to correct Knock Retard and Rich / Lean fuel conditions. Tuners use different methods to make tuning adjustments, I crunch data logs with Microsoft Excel (screen shots below). Trimalyzer is a good tool also (screen shot below).

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave w

Several gearhead-efi members, including myself, can "write" a "starter chip".

A starter is often described as a "best guess" for the fuel and spark tables based on the engine modifications.

For example, Vortec heads are a common engine modification to a TBI Engine. The spark tables for a TBI Engine vs. Vortec Engine are very different. The stock Vortec timing tables are a better match for a TBI engine has been modified with Vortec head, than TBI timing tables. Often a TBI engine that has been modified with Vortec heads requires a modified Vortec Timing Table for optimal performance. The stock Voctec Timing Table is a good "starting" point.

Tuning uses data logs, that have information a tuner uses to correct Knock Retard and Rich / Lean fuel conditions. Tuners use different methods to make tuning adjustments, I crunch data logs with Microsoft Excel (screen shots below). Trimalyzer is a good tool also (screen shot below).

dave w

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Forgive my newness to all of this but when you write the starter you’ll get it close based on the mods I’ve made. Then after that based on data logging with the cable from moates how do I change values or where do I start. Is there anyone that can help program or keep me on the right track? Again really the only thing that’s “wrong” right now is a surging idle while I’m in gear. When I shift into neutral or park it will bump but not surge or die the way it does when in gear.
It might be shifting a little late too certain times but I’m not sure. Thank you for your help too!

The best place to start tuning is with data logging.

Maybe the information in this youtube link will help get setup to data log: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpUaeiJYk3I&t=23s

dave w

I have found one of the best tools to use for someone to understand the changes made to a tune/BIN is to use an EPROM emulator, like an Ostrich 2.0 or AutoProm, which it sounds like you didn't buy.

The old method of datalog, modify bin, burn, swap EPROMs does work, it takes a lot longer and can be more difficult to get right, because you can't immediately see the result from the change and the change may be so subtle that it's difficult to tell if you're going in the right direction or not, and so you may make a bigger change than needed on the next iteration, which then may make the engine run poorly and think that you went the wrong way, changing the tune again, but the wrong way and you can get into a lot of back and forth and frustration. So, basically if you use the burn n swap method, you need to have patience and pay real close attention to what the datalog says and what your other senses tell you as well. That last part is the reason I don't do remote tuning or mail order tunes. I've tuned some cars where the numbers on the screen would have led me the wrong way, using my other senses, feel, smell sight, etc, have been my greatest asset when it comes to getting a tune right.

Using an EPROM emulator speeds up the process quite a lot and you can see the changes immediately as you make the changes and know whether it's in the right direction or not. It really helped me to understand what changes did what back when I first started learning.

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Originally Posted by Six_Shooter

I have found one of the best tools to use for someone to understand the changes made to a tune/BIN is to use an EPROM emulator, like an Ostrich 2.0 or AutoProm, which it sounds like you didn't buy.

The old method of datalog, modify bin, burn, swap EPROMs does work, it takes a lot longer and can be more difficult to get right, because you can't immediately see the result from the change and the change may be so subtle that it's difficult to tell if you're going in the right direction or not, and so you may make a bigger change than needed on the next iteration, which then may make the engine run poorly and think that you went the wrong way, changing the tune again, but the wrong way and you can get into a lot of back and forth and frustration. So, basically if you use the burn n swap method, you need to have patience and pay real close attention to what the datalog says and what your other senses tell you as well. That last part is the reason I don't do remote tuning or mail order tunes. I've tuned some cars where the numbers on the screen would have led me the wrong way, using my other senses, feel, smell sight, etc, have been my greatest asset when it comes to getting a tune right.

Using an EPROM emulator speeds up the process quite a lot and you can see the changes immediately as you make the changes and know whether it's in the right direction or not. It really helped me to understand what changes did what back when I first started learning.

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I see. The reason I went in this direction is because support from moates suggested it may take a month or so to learn (and that this way was a little less expensive) and getting a tune written for me might be the better direction even if it means sending the data I log to someone over email and exchanging back and forth. I guess I should have just bit the bullet and bought the AutoProm. :confused: I guess Ill either end up spending that extra money (yikes) or Ill have to find someone to walk me through this method at least until I am pretty comfortable I'm not going to break anything. Any suggestions are welcome. I watched the video from Dave but unfortunately that website the guy uses to find a close bin to his mods isn't functioning and seems pretty dead.

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Originally Posted by countylinegarage

I watched the video from Dave but unfortunately that website the guy uses to find a close bin to his mods isn't functioning and seems pretty dead.

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Gearhead-efi has a library of TunerPro RT files for your TBI system. The Youtube link was basic overview of TunerPro RT.

Goal #1 --- Post a data log.:popcorn:

Ask questions, we all started out like you wanting to understand EFI. It's still an engine, but with a computer.

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave w

Gearhead-efi has a library of TunerPro RT files for your TBI system. The Youtube link was basic overview of TunerPro RT.

Goal #1 --- Post a data log.:popcorn:

Ask questions, we all started out like you wanting to understand EFI. It's still an engine, but with a computer.

dave w

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Sounds good! Sorry too wasnt trying to be crappy about it :happy: I appreciate all you guys help! Just trying to figure out the options as well as what I can do myself or what I will have to get help with. I'm going to probably ride around with the laptop plugged in to get some numbers this afternoon.

I found my bin file which i made wayyyy more complicated than i needed to. However i cant find the "xdf" to data log with tunerpro since that website is funktified. Where do i find that information. EDIT I did find the files and I chose one and its in the tunerprort software im now having issues with getting my aldl cord to show for whatever reason. I followed the instructions moates put out and the software says the cord should be working but it then wont initialize. instead it says hardware not found.

I have an Ostrich or 2 I'm thinking about parting with. I have several, and don't use OBD1 GM ECMs on as many of my vehicles anymore, most have or will have Megasquirt, one will stick with the GM ECU, since it's mostly stock, and doesn't make sense to swap it to a Megasquirt, so I don't need as many emulators.

It's going to take you a lot longer than a month to learn, I've been doing this for about 15 years and still learn new things often. ;) I'm not saying that to discourage you, I'm just saying that the idea that a month to learn what you need is a bit unrealistic. Don't get me wrong, you'll learn a LOT when you jump in, and it WILL be overwhelming sometimes, but as long as you are patient and willing to learn, you'll be fine. Also, there's no such thing as a "perfect tune", you can get a tune very very good, but it'll never be perfect under all conditions, so don't get too worried when you get to a point where you seem to be changing the same cells or values back and forth between two settings. That just means that you're really close and need to leave it at some setting and live with the slightly not perfect numbers that you might be seeing. The goal is to have a good running engine, that runs smoothly, pulls smoothly and makes the power it should, while using the least amount of fuel possible to achieve this an not overheat at the same time. It's a balancing act, and will take some time.

You don't need an XDF to datalog, you need an ADX.

The XDF is, for all intents and purposes, the road map to the BIN file and puts the hex in the BIN file into easy to read numbers and functions.

The ADX is what deciphers the datastream from the ALDL port.

Ah I see. I updated that post just a second ago if you have any suggestions for that aldl datalogging issue or would that be because of my attempting to use the xdf in the software in place of the adx?

Thats what they were saying over at moates basically just that learning the beginnings would take that long to actually get writing tunes myself. In regards to the XDF ADX Is that why im having issues getting my aldl to work?

Here's the gearhead-efi link for TunerPro RT files, 1995 Pickup with 4L60E: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-0D

Here's the gearhead-efi link for TunerPro RT files, 1995 Pickup with 4L80E: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...Information-31

dave w

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Originally Posted by countylinegarage

Ah I see. I updated that post just a second ago if you have any suggestions for that aldl datalogging issue or would that be because of my attempting to use the xdf in the software in place of the adx?

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Ignore the hardware not found error, that's for emulation devices, like the Ostrich 2.0 and AutoProm.

You need to go into preferences and set everything for the cable in there.

Yes, you need to use an ADX to datalog, like I said the XDF is to look at the BIN, one can not be used in place of the other.

So I finally got to log a bit of data of me driving around by my house out in the country and here's what I ended up with. I knew I was getting around 11 mpg so wasn't surprised there yikes! I'm assuming that's the cam and heads I put on disagreeing with the computer. I hope its something I can tune out if not I guess Ill learn to live with it.

Attachment 16336

Attachment 16337

Attachment 16338Attachment 16339Attachment 16340
Here's a few more.

Seems to me ive seen some of the graphs from other users and they look relatively smooth while mine look all jumpy and my advance jumps like crazy on idle.

For the fuel and spark tables, I like using the "Running Average" view.

Posting a data log is helpful.

dave w

Is there a site or place to go see what I’m actually looking for when I do this? I cannot for the life of me find what I’m actually looking for other than spark tables. And I don’t even know what to do with those. What would you like me to post to find what you would look at and change/ how it affects the running of the engine. Also is there a way to view the file I saved after data logging?

Also is there any way I could take you up on that starter chip just to compare to the original one and see kind of what you did. It’s sometimes easier to learn things for me to see a before and after and work with it that way. I have four chips to work with because I was unsure of what I might need. Thanks!

Maybe this TunerPro RT V5 link will help: https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...-tutorial.html

Maybe a YouTube link for TunerPro RT will help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLRnRNapRN4&t=469s

dave w

I’ve been doing a little reading before playing with anything but I saw that I might need a different fuel pump and or regulator spring in my throttle body to make up for the heads I used (62cc aluminum from summit just as a recap) is that true?

Hype vs. Reality is what I think your asking. Opinions might vary, some members have more real world experience that others on the topic?

The factory TBI heads (if I remember correctly) are about 65cc, so it's likely the 62cc heads will marginally affect the compression ratio. Aluminum heads will typically allow slightly higher compression ratios vs. knock retard / spark knock. Aluminum heads offer the promise of more spark advance.

I tend to think TBI injectors are "Narrow Band" meaning the injectors "tune well" to either low end performance, midrange performance, or high end performance, not all performance levels. I tend to think 8 injectors is better than 2 injectors for that reason.

I tend to think TBI pressure regulator springs that provide higher pressures combined with higher volume fuel pumps are very helpful for all out top end performance, but will likely cause headaches for low end daily driving conditions.

Data logs provide the truth - - - - Hype vs Reality. Some say Dyno numbers don't lie.:thumbsup:

dave w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave w

Several gearhead-efi members, including myself, can "write" a "starter chip".

A starter is often described as a "best guess" for the fuel and spark tables based on the engine modifications.

For example, Vortec heads are a common engine modification to a TBI Engine. The spark tables for a TBI Engine vs. Vortec Engine are very different. The stock Vortec timing tables are a better match for a TBI engine has been modified with Vortec head, than TBI timing tables. Often a TBI engine that has been modified with Vortec heads requires a modified Vortec Timing Table for optimal performance. The stock Voctec Timing Table is a good "starting" point.

Tuning uses data logs, that have information a tuner uses to correct Knock Retard and Rich / Lean fuel conditions. Tuners use different methods to make tuning adjustments, I crunch data logs with Microsoft Excel (screen shots below). Trimalyzer is a good tool also (screen shot below).

dave w

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where would i find the stock vortec timing tables? i have a vortec 4.3 i am putting to together as a backup to my 94 4.3 tbi.
the vortec unit is a 2002 with the spider injection. i have a tbi intake and distributor and plan on swapping the needed tbi parts onto it to make it like my existing tbi.

the vortec unit will live on a run stand and only have idle stuff tuned until the 94 is no longer in service..

if i am not mistaken it should produce a little more power than the 94 as well.

The attached .xls file has a timing table that was "copied" from a 4.3 V6 .bin file located in post #6 http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...rPro-Bin-Files

dave w

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Originally Posted by dave w

The attached .xls file has a timing table that was "copied" from a 4.3 V6 .bin file located in post #6 http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...rPro-Bin-Files

dave w

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you sir, are awesome!