Running poorly/misfiring, code 33

**JeepsAndGuns** · 10-08-2023

Couple weeks ago I had a little time and I rotated the engine to TDC on #1 and the piston felt like it matched (using a screwdriver). The rotor was pointing at the #1 terminal, but not perfectly. I adjusted it a little and tried it. It started for a second, ran like pure crap and stalled. It then started raining, so I had to call it quits

Still been busy but finally had a little time to mess with it this morning.
I put it back at TDC after cleaning the timing marks. I readjusted the distributor a little more after looking at it and tested it.
It started but was reluctant to do so, and ran like crap. Would not stay running on its own.
I advanced the distributor a little more and finally got it running on its own, kinda crappy.
I let it run a few min to warm up. I adjust the distributor while it was running and as I advanced it, it started running a little better. Almost sounded normal.
Using my dial back timing light, I adjusted the dist until I got it to about where it should be, according to the tune.
It seemed to rev up and down ok sounded pretty much normal, idle seemed normal also.
I shut it off, disconnect the bypass and try to start it to set the base timing and no dice. Will not start and does not even try to.
I disconnect the battery, hook the bypass back up and have to hold the throttle wide open to go into clear flood mode to get it to restart.
It goes back to running mostly normal sounding.
I try advancing it a little more and try again with no dice. Still will not start (or even a hint of trying) with the bypass disconnected.
I try unplugging the bypass while it is running and it instantly shuts off.

I put the dist back to where my timing light is showing close to what it should be and it sounds almost normal like before.
I drive it around the yard a couple laps, never getting out of 2nd gear (4 speed with granny first gear). It seemed to run ok, but I know it is not right as I know the base timing is still off.
the wideband still shows between 11.5-12.5 AFR, sometimes it goes up to 13.4, but then goes back down to 12.5.

So I can not set the base timing, as it absolutely refuses to start with the bypass disconnected, and while it is running, it is running rich.

I am pretty much out of options and ideas.

Any of you experienced guys want to make a road trip to north alabama and make some money?

**MO LS Noobie** · 10-08-2023

I feel your pain, I had a '86 Grand Wagoneer that I built a 401 and put the early Holley four barrel digital fuel injection on. Had MSD ignition and a Ford E-core coil. It was my daily driver for 10 years.
When I run in to problems like this, I usually go back and check the basics. Does your distributor control the mechanical advance, or is this computer-controlled? A mechanical advance that's hanging up would cause your erratic timing. Have you put a new distributor cap, rotor, wires, and spark plugs in it? Are you sure it starts misfiring, and not just low idle speed from a faulty Idle Air Control motor? Not having eyes and ears on the vehicle sometimes makes it difficult to diagnose. Sensors that are glitching out and sometimes only be caught with the lab scope, not in datastream or with a voltmeter.

I agree completely with setting up a separate set of timing marks where you can view them easily. A temporary set up can be made by bending a piece of coathanger and securing it underneath a timing cover bolt, and then scribing a mark on your harmonic balancer. Bend the wire so that they line up at 0°, and then use your advance timing light to see what the actual running timing is. I have had Fords only run with the base timing plug (called the SPOUT connector) unplugged and that is almost always the ignition module, but again that is on Ford's.

When you have several systems working together, it is more difficult to diagnose than a factory original, but isn't that all part of the fun? You'll get it, just step away when you are frustrated, and follow the symptoms. Remember we're all pulling for you, we're all the this together (Red Green).

**MO LS Noobie** · 10-08-2023

Another possibility is stray EMF from your secondary ignition system or from the alternator. Quick check would just be to remove the control wires from the alternator and try that. I have seen anything over 0.2 VAC cause problems, but will definitely cause problems over 0.5 VAC. Having the wires from the sensors run close to your ignition coil or secondary spark plug wires can induce stray voltage also. Hang in there. If these things were easy, anyone could do it.

**JeepsAndGuns** · 11-05-2023

After messing around with it and driving it around the yard a few weeks ago (my last post) I only just had some time today to fiddle with it.
I started it and it was a little reluctant to start, like the timing is a little too advanced (most likely is). But it starts and runs for the most part ok. I let it set there and run for a little bit and warm up.
I then install a inline spark tester on the #1 plug and disconnect the timing bypass. I just wanted to make sure that it was still sparking, since it refuses to start on base timing.
It is sparking, but will not start.

So it is flooding itself out with the bypass disconnected, like almost instantly. I crank it for a few seconds to try and start it (I do not touch the gas pedal) but it will not even hit once. I then can smell gas.
I disconnect the battery to clear it out, then have to hold the gas pedal to the floor to go into clear flood mode and get it to start. It sputters to life and you can smell the super rich exhaust while it burns it out.

I try disconnecting the alternator like the suggested above and it made no difference, (both with and without the bypass wire disconnected).

I drive it around the yard again and it seems to run ok, but I know it is not right as I can not get the base timing set, and it is still running 11.5-12.5 AFR according to the wideband. I am not going to drive it on the road until it is right.

I do not know why it will not run on base timing and why it is running rich, I am totally at my wits end and have nothing else left to try.

**MO LS Noobie** · 11-05-2023

It still seems like there is a wiring or ground issue. Try cleaning battery posts/terminals then put jumper cables from battery negative terminal and the engine block. Also test your PCM powers and grounds (with everything connected) with volt meter back probing PCM connecter and the other lead at the battery.

I have seen flooding from ruptured fuel pressure regulator diaphragm. They can leak fuel through the vacuum line intermittently.

What ignition system are you running? It is possible you are getting multiple injector pulses per cylinder because of a cracked pole piece in distributor. In another forum there are reports of multiple failed distributors causing similar issues. Parts quality has really suffered lately.

**dave w** · 11-05-2023

I’m wondering if the HEI 8 pin ignition module is the issue?

I’ve helped out on some TBI conversions that significantly benefited switching to the HEI 8 pin ignition module and remote mounted TBI coil.

I’m always suspicious of a salvage yard TBI harness, copper wiring will corrode inside the insulation, especially grounds.

**JeepsAndGuns** · 11-07-2023

I am running a HEI distributor using a 7 pin module.
I bought a aftermarket HEI distributor for the AMC/Jeep V8. It was for carbed engines and had a 4 pin module.
The pad the module sets on was the wrong shape and size to fit the 7 pin module. But strangely, the top half of the distributor could be removed from the shaft. I figure it was so the company could use the same top of different lower shafts for different engines.
I ended up buying a used distributor from a TPI chevy 350, chucking it up in my lathe and machined it to fit the aftermarket lower housing.
I ended up using the chevy shaft, rotor and top half of the distributor and only using the bottom lower housing of the aftermarket unit.
I am using the pickup coil and 7 pin module from the TPI distributor. I attached the two together using some small bolts. They are all still tight and rock solid. Nothing appears to have moved either.
It sounds kinda hodge podge, but it had been great and completely trouble free for years.

I will unbolt and check all my grounds. The battery posts are good and clean. I use AGM batteries, so no powdery corrosion.

The pickup coil and 7 pin module I swapped were used/junkyard units I kept for spares. They are factory GM parts.
If there is a chance they could be the issue, I do not mind buying new ones, if a QUALITY replacement can be purchased. I do not want some cheap china crap that will give me trouble in a couple months.

**JeepsAndGuns** · 11-07-2023

Originally Posted by MO LS Noobie

It is possible you are getting multiple injector pulses per cylinder because of a cracked pole piece in distributor. In another forum there are reports of multiple failed distributors causing similar issues. Parts quality has really suffered lately.

Can you elaborate on this a little? This is the first I have heard about this. However I have been out of the fuel injection/tuning loop for a few years. Plus I do not work on much anything other than my own stuff, so I do not have much exposure to common issues happening to similar vehicles.
I am a small engine mechanic for a living, so I do not get much exposure to working on cars/trucks.

**MO LS Noobie** · 11-07-2023

Originally Posted by JeepsAndGuns

Can you elaborate on this a little? This is the first I have heard about this. However I have been out of the fuel injection/tuning loop for a few years. Plus I do not work on much anything other than my own stuff, so I do not have much exposure to common issues happening to similar vehicles.
I am a small engine mechanic for a living, so I do not get much exposure to working on cars/trucks.

Try this link, it explains it better than I can.
https://members.iatn.net/techmail/vi...ruck&kw=N41588

https://members.iatn.net/techmail/vi...ruck&kw=N41588

This is one of the posts if you have trouble opening it. "I have heard a lot lately about the pickup in the distributor being the cause. The pickup itself or the trigger wheel (for lack of a better term.) Check into that a little deeper if you have not. It can develop a crack or get loose on the distributor and cause these types of problems."

"also ran onto one that exhibited similar symptoms that ended up being a faulty coil that was leaking voltage out of the coil wire tower over to the primary wire connector. I saw a loss of signal from the module accompanied with a marked increase of system voltage due to HEI voltage leaking into the primary circuit."

**JeepsAndGuns** · 11-10-2023

Originally Posted by MO LS Noobie

It is possible you are getting multiple injector pulses per cylinder because of a cracked pole piece in distributor.

I did not really think much of it when I saw it, as I thought it was either just me, or the spark tester.
But when I had the spark tester hooked up, and I was cranking it with the bypass unplugged to see if it was sparking, I swear it almost looked like it double sparked a couple times.
It is a inline spark tester that has a light bulb inside it that flashes. Normally you see the flash, but a couple times, it almost looked like two super fast flashes at one time.

So is it possible we might be onto something here?
You say possible multiple injector pulses, so if it is seeing a extra erroneous pulse, it will pulse the injectors again?

Now I am almost wanting to think I fixed one issue and created another.
I think the original missfiring might have been the pickup coil, that I swapped out for a used one I had, and the used one has a different issue.
Ever since I swapped them, I have not had the missfiring, but I can not set base timing and it's running rich. I am thinking the reason I can not set base timing is it is running too rich and floods.

I'm going to order up a new pickup coil and see what that does.
Looks like my choices that I can find are either wells or standard motor products. Either one of those brands any better than the other?