I have a 93 2.2 file here from a flash type ecm but little info about data / locations.
I am certain I have an 87+ DIS cal at home. Will try and look.
lmao!This is starting to remind me of other threads where the OP just doesn't want to do things right...
Sorry, Mark. But he does have a point...
It actually has 12 holes. But it only lines up perfectly to TDC on 1-4 or 2-3.Originally Posted by 1project2many
I was talking about changing bin to 120* from 60* along with trigger set same way.
Maybe you guys don't know this but it's becoming obviously apparent? I've never done a crank trigger conversion!
That and I'm trying to use a 8708 because it is set for the Peak and Hold injectors. I could change injectors and use a 7730 and $A1, but that still has not changed this trigger issue. This is really more of a conglomeration of parts etc... then I would normally get involved in! My real relustence to the 8708 is I've never seen a dissasembly so if I get in a spot in the tune end I'm screwed...
Yes, I have one somewhere and try to find it and mask. I'd swear it was 7727/30 TBI?
It's not that I don't want to do it right, geesh, you should know I'm all about correct! 2 problems, that link says four cylinder is 70 degrees? I have one that says 74.88 and one that says 60. Second is there's no way I can put the sensor on bottom of crank in this off roader. It will not survive. Actually with the new/needed sensor being so long it may not even clear the skid plate that will be under this part of engine? So how do I do it correctly with sensor mounted where it is safe/mounted un-correctly?
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
i don't think the BIN would allow 120* for a ref angle.... i'm fairly certain the math only allows up to 90*. even then, if you did, you would have to sequence the coil packs differently. not that it would be a huge thing to do on a swap like this, but definitely keep documentation around as to what does work in case. if this were done, the 60* reference angle would still be valid.
still working on the A8 disassembly, there are some mathematically weird subroutines i've come across, have to get those correctly understood to continue without guesswork.
i know i've seen 2.5/TBI with DIS on a 7727 and possibly 7730, but i don't know about 2.0/2.2 ever being on a 27/30?
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
disregard previous 2.0/2.2 + 7730 comment.
FML
FMR
FMW
AAST
AASW
ADDT
ADDU
ADDW
ADDX
ADDY
AFWC
those are all 87(at least) model year 2.0TBI(LL8) on a 7730.
i'm not finding any 2.2/7730 though.
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
Turn the trigger wheel so that the sensor is in a protected position.
From the pictures you posted, it looks like you might have adjustment in approximately 14* steps, if those holes between the bolt holes are spaced right. If not, you still have 90* steps of adjustment.
It's the hardware set up that has the CPS 70* after the "#1" TDC notch. This is not the same as what would be in the bin.
As an example, the 6 cylinder version has the CPS set to 0* (in my car) hardware wise, yet, base timing when using a timing light shows 10* BTDC, and the bin is set for 60* initial. DIS is one of those cases where the initial setting does not match the hardware set-up.
Here are some pictures of my DIS trigger wheel and sensor that may give you some ideas:
The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.
In the end you can easily test what trigger angle is needed in the bin...
1project2many has posted how to set up the DIS module to trigger itself and measure the crank angle using a timing light.
Alternatively:
You can start the engine on base timing, when the CPS is in the correct position. You can then connect the bypass wire and see if the engine starts and continues to run. If the wrong initial is used the engine will stall or run extremely rough, you can then change the needed parameters to test as needed.
The man who says something is impossible, is usually interrupted by the man doing it.
Mark, you're probably safe with crank sensor position between 50 and 75 degrees BTDC. My toyota actually came out at 53 degrees IIRC and it starts fine winter or summer. I set the EST to come in a bit early and keep a big battery in it so the egnine's usually cranking plenty fast when the ecm takes over timing.
I wouldn't recommend setting the timing to over 90 degrees either. Watching the scope years ago and playing with reference angles, the EST pulse would suddenly shift from one side of TDC to the other if the angle was set too large. I don't know what happens but it's in the hardware, not in the code. I decided that I'd never set it above 75 degrees and so far, no problems.
The number you see in the megamanual link, 70 degrees, is not the number of degrees where the crank position sensor is set. It is the number of degrees the "extra" notch ends up ATDC when the crank sensor is set at 60 deg BTDC. It's a funny way of giving out the correct answer without handing it over on a silver platter. Additionally, this statement is incorrect :"In a 4-cylinder application, the notches DO NOT coincide with TDC, except for the one at TDC for cylinder#1 There are two notches which coincide with TDC. In the drawing I posted they are numbers 2 and 5. In all, I would say the megamanual information would allow you to set up DIS correctly but at the same time, with no other info, it would leave you with misinformation.
AMDD is one of the few calibrations I know of that GM used in two different ecm's. It was used with the early Quad 4 cars and it came in the 7749 and the 8707. The spark reference angle in that calibration is 60 degrees. The reference angle in AMDF, used with the 7749, is also 60 degrees. Those calibrations are $5C and were used in the '87 and '88 model year. I've attached both .bins
Along with $5C, $6B was used in the 8707 ecm in the early Quad 4. ANZF was released in '89 and shows a 75 degree spark reference angle. Calibrations released subsequent to '89 also show a 75 degree reference angle. ANZF is attached.
Engine Builder Magazine is an excellent read and it's chocked full of great technical information. Between the high performance articles and Doug Anderson's excellent research on parts swapping and compatibility between the same engines in different model years, I keep every copy I get my greedy little hands on. Back in '99 Doug wrote just such an article on the Q4. Here's what it says about cranks:
So the reason there are two different settings is because there are two different crankshafts. GM / Lotus advanced the crank angle by 15 degrees, presumably to help with faster startup. Mystery solved. Change the crank angle setting to match the installed angle at the sensor and you're done.1987-’88 VIN D – The original crank was a 25532120 casting. The notches on the reluctor wheel were located at 0° when the engine was introduced in ’87, but by late ’88 or model year ’89, depending on who you talk to, the notches on the reluctor wheel were advanced by 15° even though the casting number on the crank stayed the same.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...gm_quad_4.aspx
2.5 TBI + DIS came in 91 Lumina. It had electronically controlled trans so it was in in version of 7727 with extra ram. Robert probably knows that pcm number by heart. 2.5 TBI also came in S series trucks but it was equipped with distributor. There were two calibrations and two different ecm's. One used a hall effect sensor in the distributor for reference angle and / or for injector timing (yes, on a TBI).
The 2.2 TBI (LM3) was used in Corsica / Lumina models and appears to only have been used with the 7748 ecm. The 2.2 PFI LN2 was used from '91 through '95 in various vehicles but does not appear to have been used with the 7727 / 7730 ecm's.
HTH
Last edited by 1project2many; 10-15-2013 at 05:17 AM.
not that i'm aware of..... should have been just a normal 7727. i believe they were all attached to a 3T40 trans as well. the 91 3.4 introduced the 7727 w/ extra SRAM(16149396), but i've never seen that PCM used on anything other than 91-93 3.4 and 93-94 3.1 W-bodies.
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
I really have to say thanks guys! All of you! Great info and we found out why I was so confused! Also my brain is quite foggy here lately with lifes issues and I've been trying to piece together this information without a full understanding of it. Finally the last couple days, with your help and reading... especially the link from 1project2many I finally have it straight in my head! I recommend that link to everyone!!!
To show how foggy/stressed my brain is... even lining up the trigger wheel with explicate instructions from you guys I was still turning the crank the wrong way...No wonder it did not work? I hate to say this but yesterday I noticed I had the trigger wheel on backwards as well...
It does line up now and sensor can be located where I need it. When running I'll do the tests and see but I'm very confident I have it within 2* of the perfect 60* needed!
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
Mark, glad to help. Really.
Robert, you're right. 7727 only. Dunno why I thought that engine was against the 4T60E. Maybe I'm remembering unused trans code in the cal?
BCC's are
APTW
AUAJ
AUSS
ASLW
ASLX
it's possible. it's present in the 1990 model year 3.1 code, just never utilized.
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
Still not sure this Quad 4 8708 is going to work with the 2.x DIS.
The quad 4 is looking for 2x ref hi, 1x ref hi, Ref lo.
The 2.x DIS is wired for Ref.
Ideas? Or do I go back to 7727, then have to change injectors to High cause ones in here are Peak and hold.
Here's wiring for the 2.x DIS then next is Quad 4 for DIS.
Quad 4 DIS
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
i still need to go through all of the references yet, but i believe i found an option bit specifically for ignoring the 1X signal in A8. how exactly it will react, i don't know, but it looks to disable some timers and counters that are related to the signal. might run the injector drivers in simultaneous mode by default, or it could keep the alternating driver pattern. otherwise, i don't see any real problem to it.
1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo LS 3100 + 4T60E
OK Thanks Robert! I'm going to continue to wire this as 8708 I guess to completion and see if we can make it run right!
If not it will be some re-pinning at ECM connector to plug in 7727... then also how hard would it be to make it work with these Peak and Hold injectors?
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
Also this 2.x DIS, on the 6 pin plug is only 5 wires. The other was never used. I'm wondering if any other models wiring ever used that pin for something?
Pin B is the unused pin...
EDIT: And which wire from 8708 to 2.x DIS for Reference? Like I said the Quad 4 has
1. 2x ref hi
2. 1x ref hi
3. Ref lo
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
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