eagle mark shut the egr off an vss off in that 4 july bin I posted it should run his vehicle fairly good its a syncro bin but I only checked the egr code, its got a weard egr % bpw an correction, it didn't stumble much ecept 50 mph wot in 5th gear.
eagle mark shut the egr off an vss off in that 4 july bin I posted it should run his vehicle fairly good its a syncro bin but I only checked the egr code, its got a weard egr % bpw an correction, it didn't stumble much ecept 50 mph wot in 5th gear.
Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me on this.
Based partly on the strong opinions of those here, I convinced my customer to add the spark control to this system. Since the fuel mapping seemed to only slightly change the stumbling, and the strong opinion that the spark control will also help the idle quality I think this is the direction I will go.
Does anyone have any links to the parts I will need to do this? I can search the net for this but thought I would ask here first if anyone has done this.
Thanks for all the help thus far.
John
If the Jeep has a distributor with Duraspark module as a lot do then lock out mech and vacuum advance and use a EST/ICM from a small cap EFI distributor mounted on a aluminum plate for heat sink. This will remove the tach filter installed in the harness. Don't stop there though! Add the knock sensor and ESC module and your in business! So not much for parts and just use factory wiring.
IIRC there is a I6 chevy large cap HEI distributor that bolts in the jeep with a gear change... been a long time though so need to check that. If you use the large cap HEI the latency settings in chip need to be set for it as they differ from small cap.
There is also a custom made option:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...BI-Conversions!
For the knock sensor the best performance is one from a 305/5.0L engine as the bore is almost identical. The ESC must also be the same/match. The Jeep 258 is a little nosier but with a few wraps of Teflon tape and torquing the knock sensor correctly they work well without being over sensitive.
Another thing mentioned earlier is using a bin that runs Sync fueling over the Async. This is a tremendous noticeable improvement in idle quality. ony has a v6 that runs Sync, I usually just built one from a known V8 Sync bin, it's just a cylinder count change along with BPC/BPW, then tune the same. Most of what you have already done can be copied and pasted table by table, like Fuel VE1.
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
Hello again. Sorry for the delay in updates on this project.
I have added the spark control to this Jeep and there are some improvements and some not so much. Hopefully we can get them ironed out but first I will tell you what I have done.
I decided to keep the stock distributor and just welded the mechanical advance parts together and disconnected the vacuum advance.
I did incorporate the knock sensor and spark control module. The knock sensor and module were from a 305 engine as recommended here. There was no place to thread the knock sensor into the block so I opted to weld a bung onto the fuel pump block off plate and thread it in there. It was suggested that this sensor might be a little sensitive so I am hoping the gasket between the block and the plate might dumb down the signal a little, although the bolts holding the plate on will probably provide a direct path for any knocks. We will see.
The bin I am running is the one that ony posted on page 2 of this thread (bin july 4- sync 4.3 test spark.bin) with base timing set at 10*btdc
So far the stumbling in the higher map ranges above 2800 has be corrected (so it seems, not much drive time yet)
The idle quality still seems to suck. I had bin with the original Howell set up that did not go into closed loop at idle and it idled considerably better. Since this Jeep will be traveling from near sea level to over 9000 feet above, i thought it would be best to have fuel control at idle since that is where a Jeep spends much of it's time. I have read elsewhere that closed loop idle is not recommended. Thoughts?
My block learn numbers are very close at idle but the AFR is reading any where from 16.5 - 20:1. I assume there are just misfires at idle causing this but when the AFR shows around 13.5:1 it idles much smoother.
So, as far as the best way to work the spark tables, am I to just start adding advance until it detonates and then back it off a few degrees? I assume unplugging the knock sensor while doing this is the way to keep the spark control from taking away timing while I do the adjusting. Any tips here would be greatly appreciated.
Feeling good about this!
Nice job on the install!
You'll have to get a feel for knock sensor like this. Sometimes to sensative and some times not enough. But you know how to listen for ping and knock so use your skills along with data!
Base timing in bin set to 10*. So where is distributor set with bypass dis-connected? And why complicate things? Just set distributor to 0 and bin to 0. Do your work in spark tables. The spark tables in newest $42 mask show actual timing with whatever is in Bias removed.Originally Posted by All4wd
Build your first timing table from Jeep Manual and give it stock timing. Then work from there, maybe there is an already known better timing table for the jeep engine?
Do not disconnect the knock sensor to build timing table. Use it to find knock! It's a little hard with this ECM as the Knock Counts accumulate, so you have to watch data in Knock History table frame by frame and find where knock is occuring. Play log, Pause then Shift +] to move one frame at a time ahead and Shift + [ one frame at a time behind.
Make sure the bin you are using has not been disabled for knock!!! Some, like from Howell, when ESC is not used they will zero out knock retard values! So even if you have knock counts? It does not work.
There are so many things to do for idle quality! Besides getting timing tables in order and verify at crank with timing light. The first thing you need to do is look at IAC count when fully warmed up and DRIVEN! To clean out the wet intake, pull over and see where they are. I assume you have drive only? No P/N switch? If so shoot for 10! Let all air possible through throttle blades to mix with fuel from injector above! Give IAC just a little to control idle quality!
The varying AFR does sound like a misfire? Getting timing in order may fix that. Then to get a lower AFR at idle in CL then commanded Stoich. Use "O2 - Idle AFR Bias Value".
Make sure the engine is running in Sync at idle and not Async! I realise you used ony 4.3L bin as he said it was Sync. Not sure what else is in that bin, I've just gotten used to doing all conversions on any motor with ADSU as it is the best running V8 bin I can find, one simple cylinder count change and your ready to tune which you need anyway...
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
look in afr vs coolent temp. if I didn't change it it is proble 14.5-15.0 the original setting is 13.5 from about 100 degrezz f up to 195 f .
I have been looking through some of the tables and scalers and found that the "minimun mph to enable knock" was set to 2mph. With this Howell system not showing mph (but having a speed sensor - never figured that out) it would never use the knock retard, correct? I reset this value to 0 and maybe that will work.
The distributor was set to 10* with the bypass disconnected. I will reset it to 0* and adjust the tables by that amount. It seemed to run pretty good there.
I compared the main spark table in ony's bin to a table that was in the Howell bin and there is very little difference. Less than 1* in most areas with a difference, with no difference at all in most areas. I assume, since Howell bases their system off the 4.3 engine and ony said that his bin was from a 4.3, it makes sense.
I am going to mess with this some more today, I will report back.
ony - I did not find a table for ARF vs. Coolant temp to check this value.
its in tables, open loop afr vs temp.
Got it, thanks.
Be careful to make the change in Main Spark Bias and then re-open Spark Advance table before making any adjustments!
This $42 Mask/XDF has the Main Spark Bias linked/subtracted from Spark Advance table. So when ever you make a change to Bias? Close and re-open Spark advance table so it shows actual!
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
Thanks, I did notice that.
Changing the timing up or down at idle doesn't seem to make the idle quality better. The only time it seem to be good is when it is in open loop. As soon as it switches to closed loop it degrades from there.
How do I change this so it stays in open loop at idle? I would like to try that at least temporarily to see how it reacts.
What would you think maximum advance should be on an engine like this. I have advanced timing in some areas to as much as 40* and get no detonation and no knocks on the counter. There was one area at 1600 rpm that counted 80 knocks so I am assuming the sensor is working.
Time to hang it up for today. Continue again tomorrow.
May just be something not set or tuned right as I've always got the Jeep I6 to idle perfectly in CL...
But for OL idle...
"Open Loop - RPM Threshold" and use like 950 and 1400 because of the way it works.
So the knock sensor is working but may not be as accurate as it was designed for another engine, so be careful! Your already past anything I would consider safe for a basically stock engine on pump fuel! Now did you add in "SA - Spark Slope-Deg/1K Rpm" and "SA - PE Spark Added" cause there's more coming to the main Spark Advance table!Adjust here for Open Loop idle on big cam/low MAP idle engines.
The Open Loop Off Idle RPM is the RPM threshold at which the ECM leaves open loop mode. To return to open loop mode the RPM must drop below Open Loop Off Idle RPM minus the Open Loop On Idle RPM
Also have to verify with a conversion like yours that spark is accurate with timing light, not only idle but 2000 RPM, 3500RPM and above! There's are differences in EST modules even from GM that take away spark arounf 3500 and some add after 3500, never know what will happen with aftermarket modules?
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
I just thought of another reason for your idle issue... where is you O2 sensor mounted?
Also another warning for spark advance. Did you apply the spark advance patch to bin so you can see spark advance in the data? Have to look at your adx file and make sure the spark advance data conversion is set to 0, since your base timing is now 0.
1990 Chevy Suburban 5.7L Auto ECM 1227747 $42!
1998 Chevy Silverado 5.7L Vortec 0411 Swap to RoadRunner!
-= =-
allwd my truck idled a little rough with that bin, I think its the stall saver making it go up an down the rpm where it kicks in an out. if you still don't have a vss set the mph for idle to 0 that might help.
First let me say when I say the "idles sucks" maybe that is a little over stated. When it's idling it's relatively steady but there is a noticeable sputtering that is not there in open loop. Kind of sounds like the exhaust pipe is underwater if that make sense. I changed it so it now idles in open loop and it is considerably better. If it idles like this in closed loop I would not be messing with it. The sputtering seems to be AFR related. If the AFR in open loop is around 14.7-15.2 some of the sputtering comes back even if in O/L.
In closed loop the AFR (at the tail pipe, no cat and using the LM-1 AFR meter) bounces around between 17:1 and 20:1. With nothing changed other than closed loop disabled at idle, the idle smooths out and the AFR is 13.2 - 14.2:1
The O2 sensor is mounted 12" to the rear of the header collector. I moved it to this locating because it was located far up into the collector and i didn't feel it was sampling all cylinders together. This was one of the first thing I did to this Jeep when this whole thing was started.
I have double checked my components for the knock system and found the ESC module that was sent to me was for a 4.3 engine and the knock sensor was for a 305. I have a new module on the way.
I also checked that my timing in my map was consistent with the timing light (up to 3000 rpm). At 3500 it appears to be about 2-3 degrees advanced. I didn't check it any higher than that.
It was interesting to see how changing the timing 1* at idle changed the AFR almost 1 full point on the meter. I guess that is why the smog gods here in Ca. are so insistent that the timimg be dead on to pass emissions.
ony - I have the stall saver set at 500 rpm and 750 to exit.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks