1227749 info from DIY-EFI.org mailing list Circa 2000

[Six_Shooter]

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$From: ECMnut <ECMnut@aol.com>
$Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:14:04 EST
$Subject: Re: [Fwd: Syclone/Typhoon Stuff]
In a message dated 98-03-03 12:19:35 EST, Joe Boucher writes:
91-93 Turbo 4.3 Syclone engine, and Sunbird 2.0 Turbo, 88 & later
should make sense using their programs. That's it.. Offsets are hard-
coded.. Interesting reading though..
They are batch fire..... 2 Bar MAP....Distributor cap...single ext. coil..
Don't know if it has been done yet... _Looks_ very possible..
Are you thinking, maybe a twin turbo EFI Camaro?? <grin>
There is a byte in the chip (see the programs) to set it for 3,4,6 or 8 cyl..
Bruce can get HD chin straps for cone shaped hats too..
hth
Mike V
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$Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:24:50 +0000
$From: steve ravet <steve@sun4c409.imes.com>
$Subject: Re: Pin out and wiring info on GM (85 Sunbird) ECU
Dave Chu wrote:
You want to start by calling HELM and ordering the service manual for
the Sunbird that equipment came from. You'll get schematics, pinouts,
and all sorts of useful information. It'll cost probably $80, but it's
well worth it. A cheaper option is to purchase a service manual CD from
alldata. You can get one for about $20, but it's really really not as
good as the manual. the schematics are slow to display, and it's not
organized very well. Take a look at www.alldata.com
--steve
--
Steve Ravet
International Meta Systems
http://www.imes.com
steve@imes.com
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Subject: Re: drag race corolla update caution long
re-mapped.
The 89 Turbo Trans Am is a 1227148 MAF same as the 86-87
GN. The syclone, typhoon, sunbird (some) use the 1227749, MAP.
At the GN-Ttype area they have tweaker, which allows you to modify
some of the prom, and at www.syty.org (I think) they have promgrammer, for
the syty proms.
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$From: ECMnut <ECMnut@aol.com>
$Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:24:18 EDT
$Subject: Re: Same MPU, different proms
I'd like it if anyone can shed some light on the issue
for us newer members...
If I go to the boneyard and find a 7749 ECM from a
Quad-4, it will have a 256k prom in the carrier.
If I get a 7749 from a Turbo Sunbird, it will have a 128k prom...
How does the ECM know where to load the prom into memory?
It the answer in the other chip(s) in the carrier?
Thanks,
Mike V
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$From: ECMnut <ECMnut@aol.com>
$Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:22:22 EDT
$Subject: Re: MAP sensor from a turbo car
In a message dated 98-05-27 08:18:03 EDT, you write:
<<
Hmm.. have the box here somewhere....
AC Delco #213-16
Then a finer number 10096129
2 bar map sensor..
Fits Syclone & Typhoon (and I think 89 & up TurboSunbird)
HTH
Also: it is a separate unit that you can bolt down, and run the
wiring & vacuum line to.. Around $50-$60 US I think..
Mike V
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$From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" <StowT@PerkinsCoie.com>
$Subject: RE: VSS & 730 ECM
$Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:52:37 -0700
could I get a speed sensor from these folks for my upcoming 85 sunbird tbi
installation ? it needs a speed sensor as well ?
thanks, Ted.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Boucher [mailto:BoucherJC@lmtas.lmco.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 1998 9:00 AM
To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: VSS & 730 ECM
Wow! I changed the subject line!
About 3 years ago I found this place for an inline speedometer cable VSS.
United Speedometer
1-800-877-4798
At that time it was $51 for the unit and $6 for shipping to the DFW area.
They have 2000 and 4000 pulse
units. They called them 2 and 4 pulse units.
Joe Boucher
'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban
(low) and
and four
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$From: "Ron Gregory" <rgregory@chrysalis.org>
$Subject: Injectors and ECMs
$Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:54:44 -0500
I have a buddy that has gone completely overboard with
his Syclone. We are now running out of injector. He
wants to go with huge injectors. He also wants to go with
the new Felpro SEFILO8 ECM, because the guy that sold
him his camshaft said the stock ECM wouldn't work....
I want to prove him wrong by using the stock ECM and
maybe he'll give me some of the $2400 for helping....
We are working on a GMC Syclone... using the
Delco 1227749 ECM. This is the same ECM that was
used on the '87-90 turbo 2.0 'M' cars [Sunbird]. This
ECM has two injector drivers, but from what I've
already learned, it only uses one injector driver.
So, does that mean that all six injectors are fired at once,
or does that one driver fire for each bank????
Does anyone know if the turbo S-bird only used one driver, too?
Or did it use both... and had different wiring... some pins the Sy
doesn't use...
My buddy just bought a set of six 55 lb/hr Seimans low-ohm
fuel injectors [cheaper than a set of MSD high-ohm injectors]...
yes... *before* I got all the answers... as usual...
Someone [a turbo Regal expert] told him that all he had to
do was swap-out the injector drivers.... maybe for a GN, but
I doubt a Syclone... noone listens to me...
Are low-ohm drivers intended to drive only one injector?
Is it true that the low-ohm injectors are more stable... flow more
predictably?
Would it be worth the effort to build a small interface board to
drive those low-ohm injectors via the current driver on the
ECM? What would that buy us?
Would putting that 10-ohm resistor on each low-ohm injector
buy us anything other than the ability to use the injectors that
he already bought... if that?
I don't have [any of] the answers... please help...
[pick all tha apply]
* get high-ohm injectors, 'cause they aren't bad
* go with Felpro ECM and low-ohm injectors
* build a board to drive low-ohm injectors with
GM ECM..
* check caller-ID box and don't answer the phone
any more when that clown calls back
Thanks,
~~~~~~
Ron Gregory Syclone VIN #1452
rgregory@iname.com Garland, TX
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$Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:35:53 +1100
$From: Richard Wakeling <kojab@ar.com.au>
$Subject: Re: Injectors and ECMs
Hi Ron,
Ron Gregory wrote:
This is what I believe to be correct.
Yes all injectors fire at the same time. Saturation method
The Sunbird turbo uses two drivers. Two injectors on each driver using
peek and hold method.
and had different wiring... some pins the Sy
Yes the Sunbird turbo used c10 and c11 as injector outputs.
Whereas the Syclone used c11 and c12 which are joined inside the ECM.
On the Sunbird:
c13 and c15 were jumpered to add a .1 ohm resistor to the source and to
ground for one of the injector drivers to operate in peek and hold.
d5 and d6 were also jumpered to add another .1 ohm resistor to the
source and ground for the second injector driver again to operate in
peek and hold.
This would probably be the ideal situation.
In my experence low-ohm injectors which are usualy driven peek and hold
are more stable at small pulse widths so idle is usually more stable
with larger injectors with low z injectors driven peek and hold.

This is one option.
What would that buy us?
This does work but it is not as good as running them peek and hold.
If you don't use the 10-ohm resistor the injectors and drivers will
overheat and probably give you an intermitant code 42.
The problem using the 10-ohm resistor is you are not getting the full
and correct drive across the injector.
There maybe a possibily that you could drive three injectors peek and
hold from each of the drivers. Don't forget the Sunbird is driving two.
The injector loom would have to be modified so you had two seperate
circuits. The injector wiring then would have to be the same as the
Sunbird turbo ( with jumpers) so the only other question is will both
drivers get the nescessary signals from the Syclone software.
Cheers Richard.
sorry about the spelling.

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$From: ECMnut@aol.com
$Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:55:03 EST
$Subject: Re: Tcc and Fan questions
Hi Rick,
I'm not sure about the TCC lockup, but one of the "cooling fan"
sections is actually for turning the 12 volt pump on / off that
circulates coolant through the liquid intercooler / chiller
setup.. Not really a fan motor at all...
That is for the Turbo 4.3 V6... Turbo Sunbirds
had no intercooler..(notice much the lower boost)..
Are you using a Syclone or Turbo Sunbird bin? If not,
the program will be useless to you...
HTH
Mike V
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$From: ECMnut@aol.com
$Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 07:39:25 EST
$Subject: Re: volvo turbo CIS ->Sunbird Turbo EFI?!
Hi Jesse,
Ya probably wanna check out syty.org (download section) and get
Richard's PromGrammer software. It is specifice to the Turbo sunbird,
Syclone & Typhoon... The above cars use a two bar sensor, but
syty list members have been debugging a 3 bar chip that looks
encouraging, if you like >16 psi.. You didn't mention an interrcooler.
HTH
Mike V.
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$From: H8carbs <H8carbs@aol.com>
$Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:44:51 EST
$Subject: Re: Turbo Sunbird
In a message dated 97-12-31 17:48:16 EST, you write:
<< > I have access to an '88 Sunbird turbo chip and I have an EPROM Burner but
I
> don't know the style of the chip to read it.
> >>
This one is a 27128. You'll need to use an adapter as Peter mentioned,
to connect to the 14 pairs of pins at the EPROM-end of the carrier.
Mike V
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$Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 08:10:27 -0600
$From: "John A. Hess" <johnhess@cris.com>
$Subject: Re: Turbo Sunbird
The "special" adapter is not all that complicated. Just get yourself a PC board
IDE header,. cut it to the number of pins that the EPROM actually uses (28), and
spread the pins to fit your EPROM ZIF socket. Works fine and lasts a long time.
H8carbs wrote:
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From: Shannen Durphey <shannen@grolen.com>
To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Holley 4tbi to 7747
The 730 has one P+H driver, ie 87 2.0L vin1. Needs a repin to use it, and
it's for a single injector.
The sunbird turbos+Q4 used the 749 and it has 2 drivers each able to drive
two injectors.
The 749 Promgrammer is $15.95, no longer freeware.
Bruce
7749 has a real nice free-ware
in a
homework.
above?
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$From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@bright.net>
$Subject: Re: L-jetronic mods
$Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:38:36 -0400
While lots of folks laugh at Fiats, they happen to be very well designed,
for what they are intended to be.
Anyway:
My suggestion is go to a junk yard and snag a 1227749, and just start with
that.
The Bosch while nice is going to get rare, and the Air Door will jam from a
back fire (just a matter of time, IMHO).
The 1227749 is what is used in the GM syclones, and uses a 2 bar
calibration, MAP sensor, so you don't run out of "table space". There is a
$15 prom editor at the syty home page..
By using the Sunbird chip it's for 4 cylinder to begin with.
Can be wired for P+H, or Saturated injectors.
Other than checking to see if the TPS is a 0-5v signal, and VSS
compatability,
might be easier then where your headed..
I'm not in favor of hammering the calibration from NA to 7 PSI,
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$From: ECMnut@aol.com
$Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:36:07 EST
$Subject: Re: Delco for a Toyota
In a message dated 2/9/99 7:16:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
darkmonahue@awwwsome.com writes:

The 87-90 Turbo Sunbird 2.0 used the same ecm. If I were to do
that swap (with that ECM), I'd buy a Sunbird PROM to start with.
It's close in terms of displacement, and it would probably
run decent before any tweaking. You should try to get the
TB and sensors from the turbo sunbird if possible too.
Haven't done it, just speculating...
HTH
Mike V
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$From: "Ron Gregory" <rgregory@chrysalis.org>
$Subject: Turbo P4 doc
$Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:08:35 -0600
I *found* a Delco document on the '88
Turbo Sunbird. The Syclone/Typhoon
just happen to run the same algorithms.
In fact, they both use the 1227749 ECM.
This document describes the bi-directional
8192 serial interface protocol for the
Turbo P4 cars along with a bunch of
other stuff...
I scanned it in, and sent it to Richard
Tomlinson (author of Promgrammer)
He OCR-ed it, and I created a table of
contents etc.
It's not perfect, but it should
give you and idea of how the Turbo P4
operates. Some of the sections are gone.
If you happen to have any of those sections,
please contact me.
http://members.home.com/syclone/Turbo_P4_Doc.pdf
~~~~~~
Ron Gregory Syclone VIN #1452
rgregory@iname.com Garland, TX
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$From: ECMnut@aol.com
$Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:32:05 EST
$Subject: DIS w/ '749 .bin, GM did it..
The same 749 box was used in just about all
of the '88 Quad-4 applications the General produced,
with (I think) DIS.. I never saw a a Q4 with a dissy...
Anyway, it sounds like the the 749 has the hardware
to do what you want, but the Sy bin has the wrong code
for the app. Unfortunately, none of the offsets are the same
in the Q4 PROM as the Sy chip.. It's a 256 instead of the
Syphoon/Sunbird 128 chip.
Lemme know (off list) if a Q4 749 bin is required.
HTH
Mike V
In a message dated 2/11/99 5:42:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tedscj@aol.com
writes:
be
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$Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:04:57 -0800
$From: Ludis Langens <ludis@cruzers.com>
$Subject: Re: EST observations (kinda long)
Tedscj@aol.com wrote:
The problem is that the other edge may "move around" at different RPMs.
Here is the dwell computation code from the SyTy (and turbo Sunbird)
program. All the named locations are RAM variables except for
TachInterval which comes from the hardware timing chip. Notice that all
of the constants are hard coded, none are read from the configuration
area. (Question: Are the SyTy and Sunbird distributor or DIS?)
This code fragment is invoked at 80 Hz
xD035 ...
LDX TachInterval ;Hardware register
LDAA #255 ;Dummy huge ExtraDwell
LDAB Flags2F
BITB #bigMapIncrease
BNE @0 ;Force ExtraDwell := (TachInterval / 8)
LDD OldTachInterval ;OldTachInterval - TachInterval
PSHX
TSX
SUBD (X)
PULX
ASLD ;Double difference
SUBD ExtraDwell ;Extra dwell if RPM increased
BMI @1
ADDD ExtraDwell
@0 STD ExtraDwell
@1 PSHX ;TachInterval to D
PULD
LSRD ;TachInterval / 8
LSRD
LSRD
SUBD ExtraDwell ;Limit ExtraDwell to (TachInterval / 8)
BHS @2
ADDD ExtraDwell
STD ExtraDwell
@2 PSHX ;TachInterval to D
PULD
STD OldTachInterval ;Set new OldTachInterval
LSRD ;Compute Dwell using TachInterval
SUBD #229
BHS @3
ADDD #308
BRA @5
@3 LSRD
SUBD #295
BLO @4
ADDD #382
BRA @5
@4 ADDD #1527
LSRD
LSRD
@5 STD Dwell
LDAA #120 ;Increase dwell at low volts
DIFA SensedVolts
LDAB #4
MUL
ADDD Dwell ;Combine all terms
ADDD ExtraDwell
STD Dwell
LDD TachInterval ;TachInterval - 39
SUBD #39
SUBD Dwell ;Limit Dwell to (TachInterval - 39)
BHS @6
ADDD Dwell
STD Dwell
@6 ...
This code fragment slowly reduces ExtraDwell to zero. It is executed
once per ignition event (up to 80 Hz).
xCE2F ...
LDD ExtraDwell ;ExtraDwell / 8
LSRD
LSRD
LSRD
COMA ;- (ExtraDwell / 8) - 1
COMB
ADDD ExtraDwell ;ExtraDwell - (ExtraDwell / 8) - 1
BPL @9
CLRD
@9 STD ExtraDwell ;Decay ExtraDwell to zero
--
Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
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$From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@bright.net>
$Subject: Re: 749 inna 730
$Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:59:38 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: andy quaas <realsquash@yahoo.com>
To: gmecm@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <gmecm@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: 749 inna 730
No, the 730 uses one injector driver, and shares two pins for the injectors.
The 749 has two injector drivers and can be set as a single saturated
injector driver
like in the syclone, or as a dual Peak+Hold like in the Sunbird Turbo (that
used the 749),
or like in the Quad 4 (that used the 749).
It can take a ton of work to work out a calibration!.
If anyone thinks the reading the archives is time consuming you won't
beleive how much time you can invest inna calibration.
Bruce
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$From: "John T. Martin" <gmman@eskimo.com>
$Subject: Re: Turbo Sunbird GT Boost Gauge wiring?
$Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:29:37 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry/Carol Kelley <terryk@foothill.net>
To: gmecm@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <gmecm@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 5:47 PM
Subject: Turbo Sunbird GT Boost Gauge wiring?
Anybody have the wiring for the Sunbird turbo boost gauge?
Terry Kelley
1986 Olds Ciera GT 3800 Supercharged
hello,
The boost gauge is in parallel with the ECM on the Sunbird. Uses the same
map signal on pin F15 of the 749. Had a wiring diagram faxed to me today.
Email me if any more info is needed.
John
gmman@eskimo.com
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$From: Tedscj@aol.com
$Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:58:30 EDT
$Subject: Re: DIS, HEI, and PITAs
I Tried some things with the DIS today.
First, I made sure the DIS was at least responding to the original DIS .bin
(from a '91 Sunbird) and it was.
Then I just started from the beginning trying to adjust different things with
the SyTy .bin. I kept notes and I will paste them right here.
The changes I made to the .bin were NOT accumulative. The changes made were
ONLY those mentioned in each line. Except for the Main Spark Table. 1-5 the
table was zeroed out completely 6< the table was 0 for everything below
2000rpm and 30degrees for everything above 2000rpm (so that any advance would
be obvious.)
1 - 5 : Main Spark Table zeroed out.
1. no changes except for above: ran about 60 degrees advanced.
2 KREFANGL at 40: No difference.
3. MAXRTRD2 at 50: Timing mark right at zero.
4. MAXRTRD2 at 70: Timing mark at 20 BTDC.
MAXRTRD2 seems to be ADVANCING the base timing.
5. Changed KCTBIAS (coolant temp bias) from 20 to 50: No changed.
6- Main spark advance table set as described below.
6. Changed main spark advance to abruptly go from 0 to 30 degrees advance at
2000 rpm: It DID advance abruptly at 2000 RPM.
7. set MAXRTRD2 at 60: timing mark at 10 BTDC but there is now NO advance
at 2000RPM
8. 7 + changed MAXADVN2 from 46 to 120: still No advance at 2000 RPM
9. change MAXRTRD2 to 5 (to check if a small change will still render the
main spark table inop.): It DID advance abruptly at 2000RPM. SO changing
the MAXRTRD2 value does not in itself render the the Main Spark Adv. inop.
10. Change MAXRTRD2 to 20 (I'm going to sneak up on the 60 value): Can
barely get the car started at 20, and won't reve pas 1200 or so ... will jump
to 40 and see what happens.
11. MAXRTRD2 set to 40: Timing mark at something like 10 ATDC and there is
NO advance after 2000RPM.
12. Set MAXRTRD2 to 50 and set MAXADVN2 to 0.0 just to see what happens:
timing mark at 0 degrees and No advance.
13. leave MAXRTRD2 at 50 and move MAXADVN2 to 60 and KREFANGL to 60 to see
what happens: Still no advance.
14. same as above only MAXADVN2 at 120: still no advance.
What did I learn?
The DIS module DOES respond to the EST signal, WHEN no other parameters have
been changed too far. The MAXRTRD2 seems to advance the base timing. The
MAXADVN2 and KREFANGL seem to have no apparent effect. Once you advance the
base timing too far (through the MAXRTRD2) the MAIN SPARK TABLE ceases to be
effective. Again, adjusting the MAXADVN2 does not solve this problem and
appears to have no effect.
You can see all the different combinations I have tried above. If you can
think of anything else, please let me know.
Thanks,
Ted
PS What Bruce and Terry said about inverting the Reference Signal from the
DIS to the ECM would work. It would push back the timing 60degrees (assuming
50% duty cylce and three pulse per revolution). That would set the base
timing at 10degrees when the Main Spark Table says 0 degrees, which is close
enough. And I found that if you don't mess with the KREFANGL, MAXRTRD2, or
MAXADVN2 then the DIS module WILL respond to the EST signal. If you set the
base timing too far with the MAXRTRD2, then the DIS module will NOT respond
to the EST signal (or maybe the ECM stops pushing up the advance on the EST
signal any further).
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$Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:37:59 -0800
$From: Ludis Langens <ludis@cruzers.com>
$Subject: Turbo Sunbirds (was Re: BINs)
Bruce Plecan wrote:
Starting in 87, the valve cover and the turbo to throttle body pipe are
a very bright red. You can recognize a '749 equipped Sunbird from ...
clear over in the import section. I guess that V6 Fiero sales weren't
up to predictions so they had lots of extra red paint.
--
Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
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$Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:26:19 -0800
$From: Ludis Langens <ludis@cruzers.com>
$Subject: Re: Newbie: Fiero ECM questions
TK wrote:
The SyTy / Turbo Sunbird code appears to be derived from the Fiero
6869/7170 speed-density code. I haven't looked at the SyTy code all
that much, but every part I have looked at is almost a line-by-line copy
of the Fiero code.
In the backwards direction, the 6869 code is related to other
speed-density programs. The 6864 4-cyl TBI has a lot in common with the
6869. Optimizations present in one but not the other imply that the
branch point is further back. Perhaps the common ancestor is all the
way back at the (circa 1982) 5610 & 6026 ECMs.
--
Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
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$From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@bright.net>
$Subject: Re: HALP Sunbird
$Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:19:16 -0400
Subject: Re: HALP Sunbird|
Looks to be:
ABKS ABKL ASYN ASYN ASYP BJU AAMN ABLR ABLT ACXK ACXM ALWN ALWP
ANXF ANXH ANMD ANMF AWSP BASL AMWT AMWU ATUZ ATWR AYHX BASL ATUZ
ATWA AYHX BABM BASL
Grumpy
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$From: ECMnut@aol.com
$Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:57:43 EDT
$Subject: Re: Injector Sizing, realistic goals, etc
Hi Aaron,
yep, the 7749 has been so picked apart, that pratically
every byte in the chip is accounted for. I forget the reason,
but I read somewhere that it won't go to 7,000 rpm.. I think
6,750 or there abouts was the limit.. Anyone know about this?
Anyway, the PromGrammer software (big, slow, Java thing)
for the Syclone Typhoon V^ works for the turbo sunbird chip too..
Offsets are the same...
MV
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$Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:10:35 -0500
$From: Shannen Durphey <shannen@grolen.com>
$Subject: Re: 1227749 EEPROM Type
Scott Flanagan wrote:
This system is on all quad 4 engines. The eprom in this application
is usually a 27c256, it is twice as large as the eprom in the syclone
or sunbird. The data tables are in different locations, and this
makes for wacky values like 0 cylinders when read with promgrammer. I
get the same values here. You need to get a sunbird eprom.
Shannen
I am trying to work with an old reader, but I am not too

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