TBI Chip 1983 CJ 7 with 1990 350 TBI having chip proram issues

[EagleMark]

You didn't say if yiou data logged for a custom chip?

Fuel is 18 to 19 psi

Makes a difference in how to calibrate a chip, get a reading. 18 should handle this motor fine.

Did run while at @ 0 would fall on its face when Iwould try to accelerate so Brain recommended advance timing as much as 12 deg (seemed wrong to me but I tried it and it helped)

You were right and he was wrong.

When I first did this swap with the stock TBI motor several years ago Affordable Fuel Injection recommended me doing this way and the wiring harness was not built to add one in.

Wrong again, they just sold you one that was built that way.

I explained my who build to comp cams and they said this cam would best fit my needs

Well at least that was good info. Marine cams are great low idle, low RPM tourque cams. You would have been batter off with a stock TBI and not bored for the low RPM response.

[devind]

You didn't say if yiou data logged for a custom chip?

Makes a difference in how to calibrate a chip, get a reading. 18 should handle this motor fine.

You were right and he was wrong.

Wrong again, they just sold you one that was built that way.

Well at least that was good info. Marine cams are great low idle, low RPM tourque cams. You would have been batter off with a stock TBI and not bored for the low RPM response.

I went back and added it:
No there was no data logging done.

Also Brain is recomending a 3 wire o2 sensor

[EagleMark]

A three wire/heated O2 seonsor will not hurt a thing. It only helps keep O2 sensor hot enough to stay Closed Loop Idle. It's also recommended as a cover up for overly rich idle that will cool a non heated O2 sensor and go Open Loop and run bad because fueling/spark is so far off.

No data log = NOT custom chip. Just another off the shelf chip we have seen many times before... every one I have seen had hardly any changes, some were just plain wrong. Although I already knew this when you told us about the playing with timing...

Sorry for the news. You are not the first nor will you be the last. But you are on the road to recovery and a good running engine! Whether you want to learn or hire a tuner (or both) to do this properly your at the right place.

Now do you have a cable to hook to a laptop and data log? You need data! How can you tune anything that you don't know is there?

[dave w]

One idea I have is to set you up with a TunePro plug and play ready Laptop? Some of the people I've helped liked having a computer that was ready to data log. Maybe you have a spare laptop you'd like set up for TunerPro?

It's been my personal experience, that near stock fuel pressures work fine for an engine like yours. The most important fuel parameter in the chip program is the Base Pulse Width (BPW). Getting the initial BPW parameter set correctly is mostly a math problem. The example below is a 383 with 454 injectors. There are a few challenges I have with BPW, not all injectors flow at the rate they are advertised, figuring out what the injector is actually flowing, and lastly what the computer thinks / needs the BPW programmed for. To me, figuring BPW is like comparing apples, oranges, and bananas.

	1 pound per hour = 0.125997881 grams per second
0.78375	383 cubic inches = 6.27 liters / 8 cylinders
106.9533	BPW = 1461.5 x (cyl vol / inj flow rate )
10.70982	Conversion 85 lbs /hr to grams per second

dave w

[devind]

Y’all have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

Here is where I am at right now. I spoke with my credit card company today to see if I can dispute this purchase of the chip from TBIChips and I was told I had up to 60 days to do so.

As much as I would like to just be done with it, I have to play the game of sending the chip back to him and giving him the opportunity to make it right. But first I am working on getting an older laptop today so that I can have one dedicated for data logging and I already ordered a cable the other day (that is how I actually came to find this site). Once I get the data logging figured out I will pull a data log from my Jeep so that I can share with you but to also send to Brain and give him an opportunity to fix it and make it right. However I am not going to keep going back and forth with him like I have noticed others on this site do and be stuck with a $270 chip that doesn’t work. I figure this may take a couple of weeks to play out. Meantime with your help I plan to learn more about TunerPro and get a better under standing of what is involved in burning my own chips.

As far as not having a knock sensor, when I first did this conversion several years ago it was explained to me that if I was planning on running headers (which I was) that the knock sensor would not work well and would pick up false reading and would end up hurting me than helping me. At time I knew very little and trusted the man selling me the chip and wiring harness. Of course so often that is how I learn. I now know different. Hopefully we can work around this problem and create a program that will perform well with out it and without any detonation issues.

If I understand correctly the timing curve is programmed into the chip so when I advance the base timing I am moving the whole curve by that amount. For example if at 0 deg base timing I have a total of 30 deg of timing advance when I move the timing back 8 deg I now have a total advance of 38 deg plus the initial timing will also be moved back 8 deg. Because right now after checking my timing with the motor revved up and the timing at total advance I have 38 deg. I knew when he told me to do this it didn’t sound right but I was amazed that it did work and there is no sign of detonation that I can notice even after lugging the motor hard and trying to make it clatter I didn’t hear any. But I am sure this summer when the temp is up to 100 deg that will be a different story.

Its kind of funny people that know me, know that I do my best to do everything myself and very seldom need outside help and if I don’t know how to do something I try and research it and learn it.. But when it came to converting to EFI I just didn’t have a clue and trusted others that seemed to have a reputable reputation once again here I am learning the hard way.

[EagleMark]

As Dave suggested I do set up owner laptops with cables so they are ready to go. Also do live tuning with an emulater and remote desktop connection tuning via wireless internet. Also have one as a loaner but it is out right now.

When I do them by mail first I send a starter chip. To do anymore I have to have data log or it's all a guess and wasted time and mail, not to mention not tuned right.

Also he can send you a chip without wating for a return, yes there should be a clause that they all have to be returned in the end. I know why, it's because scam chips has been exposed! We have many! But why make you suffer the wait. Just mail one..... but without data why bother?

Headers can cause some false knock, most stock 1227747 5.7L engines will have soame false Knock WOT anyway. Even worse and possibly KILLER with your timing curve if the ESC test is left on! It adds 11 degrees timing as a Knock Sensor test at WOT, if no respnse it adds 22 degrees! Just turning off the error code does not turn off the test!

You can also have Knock long before you can hear it!

Your scenario of 38 degrees advance with timing light scares me! What happens if PE spark is added (another 5 degrees) which you can not do while under the hood with a timing light? What about decleleration spark? For instance one bin had 39 degrees in 20 MAP column, you moved your distributor 12 degrees, now you have 51 degrees advance during decel and it's firing the wrong cylinder!

OK now say spark is stock at 16 at idle, you added 12 so now it's 28, then start up spark is added and it's 36!

Besides 38 degrees is to much advance in a daily driver light car and who knows the quality of fuel, and stupid in your heavy big tire beast. Even if that wasn't a consideration I would never run that much advance with out a knock sensor. Not even close if by mail, little more hands on. I'm a wimp on the safe side but I have yet to hurt a motor. Screw the last 15 HP unless your on a dyno, then still back it off for a daily driver.

Pull your spark plugs and use a magnifying glass to look for specs (melted metal) on spark plugs.

[EagleMark]

There's a lot of adders and subtracters to timing. But if you want to see actual WOT timing in your chip, rev engine to 3600 RPM and watch timing when you pinch off MAP sensor vacuum line. Without making MAP go to 100 you don't know where your at unless you are watching live data.

[davidw]

As Dave suggested I do set up owner laptops with cables so they are ready to go. Also do live tuning with an emulater and remote desktop connection tuning via wireless internet. Also have one as a loaner but it is out right now.

When I do them by mail first I send a starter chip. To do anymore I have to have data log or it's all a guess and wasted time and mail, not to mention not tuned right.

Also he can send you a chip without wating for a return, yes there should be a clause that they all have to be returned in the end. I know why, it's because scam chips has been exposed! We have many! But why make you suffer the wait. Just mail one..... but without data why bother?

Headers can cause some false knock, most stock 1227747 5.7L engines will have soame false Knock WOT anyway. Even worse and possibly KILLER with your timing curve if the ESC test is left on! It adds 11 degrees timing as a Knock Sensor test at WOT, if no respnse it adds 22 degrees! Just turning off the error code does not turn off the test!

You can also have Knock long before you can hear it!

Your scenario of 38 degrees advance with timing light scares me! What happens if PE spark is added (another 5 degrees) which you can not do while under the hood with a timing light? What about decleleration spark? For instance one bin had 39 degrees in 20 MAP column, you moved your distributor 12 degrees, now you have 51 degrees advance during decel and it's firing the wrong cylinder!

OK now say spark is stock at 16 at idle, you added 12 so now it's 28, then start up spark is added and it's 36!

Besides 38 degrees is to much advance in a daily driver light car and who knows the quality of fuel, and stupid in your heavy big tire beast. Even if that wasn't a consideration I would never run that much advance with out a knock sensor. Not even close if by mail, little more hands on. I'm a wimp on the safe side but I have yet to hurt a motor. Screw the last 15 HP unless your on a dyno, then still back it off for a daily driver.

Pull your spark plugs and use a magnifying glass to look for specs (melted metal) on spark plugs.

Is the ESC responsible for fuel cut and spark advance in deceleration? And if its not being used in the bin is there any other way fuel cut and spark advance are controlled in deceleration mode?

Also what would make the high idle work for just a second or so and then return to normal idle with the (B8?) signal wire for A/C having 12 volts?

Thanks