350 with 30lb injectors

**ZEDRATED** · 08-15-2013

I will put a log up when I get a chance. If you still feel like helping me out with that ZZ4 bin we can see how far we get. I still want to try the car on a cold start and he still said he needs it to get the AFR right at 5000rpm.

**EagleMark** · 08-15-2013

Originally Posted by ZEDRATED

He said he was right there and said as soon as he added 2 degrees advance it went lean them he couldn't get it back down for some reason. I guess like Mark said. The $6E is hard to do, and these computers are so old and slow.

Has nothing to do with old slow ECM. Nothing he did was correct, just a lie and cheat to get WOT AFR to best he can for dyno results.

Originally Posted by xtreamvette69

best responce to the bin is lies,lies,lies,cheat,cheat,cheat...inj size trickery, timing trickery etc etc all short cuts he could take he took.

best advice= pull all the efi and go back to old school carb and dist because thats basically what you have atm, you would probly even gain some proformance doing this as your not using any of the benifits of the efi anyhow. just my 2cents, but if your happy with it thats whats important i guess. i on the other hand would be pissed, about $500 worth of pissed to be exact tbh.

i'm thinking Mark hit this 100% on the head with his tooner statement. all he basically did was tune your carb and adjust your dist curve a lil but didnt even do that right, instead jus lied to the ecm all he could to get the wbo2 to say what he wanted(forced). perfect example of a guy with bought skills(all the tools) and not knowing what to do with them) jus using electronics to tune like carb setup and even then its not right

ex: your running 24#injectors, base timing is 28.13* not much sence of going on with looking at the bin when that right there shows me already his idea of a toon is to cut the ecm out as much as he can and tune it like a carb setup.

would be pretty interesting to see a log of this

I'd have to agree!

Originally Posted by ZEDRATED

I still want to try the car on a cold start and he still said he needs it to get the AFR right at 5000rpm.

Why?

First he started with an Auto bin in a manual car. So nothing will ever be right and you'll be chasing your tail tuning for all sorts of issues!

Max advance has been changed to more then is mechanically able at distributor, so the possibility of firing wrong cylinder is applied, on purpose in toon.

There are 378 changes from stock bin to this tooned bin. None of which are acceptable. Things that need to be changed from the start are not done.

This is not a tune job, this is a hacked PE Rape toon. This would have to be, absolutely the worst professional paid for toon I have ever seen!

**xtreamvette69** · 08-15-2013

he needs to let the ecm get afr right in all ranges, just setting it all right gives you a carb. make sure you take note of the temp it is when you get it tuned so you will be able to tweek and adjust your "tune" for other verying conditions unless your always going to drive it under the very same conditions. remember cooler air is denser, i doubt your going to have a problem with a cold start long as cold means same temps outside as it is now. he should have no prob forcing it into more pe for that wot though, not as much anyhow as doing it right..
and good thing you told him fuel econamy when normal driving(cruise) was not at all important to you, made his job easier... doesnt need to use hardly any tables or adjusters, no wonder he can tune them so fast.

and yes Mark i havent seen many "pro tunes" but if this is an example well then i want no part of seeing any more of them lol

and i'm betting tons of hp left on the table considering that most any sbc i have ever seen make the most power at around 34-36 adv. .. my guess is more he is trying to use the high timing to hide the god awfull idle more like. i think i'm going to stop there without getting into anything about all that he did wrong to get the afr "right.
and ya i too noticed the non manual bin

as i have said..imo open loop is a tuning tool not a final tune. think that might hafta become my siggy quote. lol

**ZEDRATED** · 08-15-2013

Xtreamvette, are you willing to carry on and help me with that ZZ4 bin or the sample bin and see how many more birds we can kill before we get it right? lol

**xtreamvette69** · 08-16-2013

Originally Posted by ZEDRATED

Xtreamvette, are you willing to carry on and help me with that ZZ4 bin or the sample bin and see how many more birds we can kill before we get it right? lol

hmm how does one correctly and politly answer this open ended question?

first off i would say if it were me and i had paid a tuner to tune my car and i got a half azz attempt and was left with an open loop tune and no other explanation other then he cant get it to work in closed loop, i would either
A:consider it done and that i have nothing more then a tempermental weekend toy or race car to tinker with and call it done and just tweek the tune as weather changes or anytime any other conditions change.(keep in mind even the slightest changes will not be able to be adapted to in open, such as something as simple as slight buildup in the tb/iac passage, clean air filer vs dirty etc).
B:i would demand a real and completed tune, if he cant do that i would ask why, and if he says something is not right find out what and fix it(although i think him saying something isnt right is B.S. tbh..and who and why would someone do a tune on a car if they for one second felt there was another issue with it) then if after all that he cant tune it correctly i would certainly expect a refund.

now onto the question at hand.. tbh i cant see it being practical to attempt a tune while trying to retain his setting for his "tune" to work as well. imo and the way i do things as i said is as a whole package, leaving the fp, spark adv set the same as his toon may or may not be ideal for another tune, but is always nice to be able to try test diff settings to acheive the intended goal which would all effect his "tune" as well unless all changed back and fourth each time.

so as much as i would enjoy playing with this and as much as i'm thinking his tune will be lacking, i have to say at this time its kinda his problem atm. he has your money now you should get your tune.. not excuses, if he cant do it he needs to turn all the B.S.'ing off swallow his pride(which with tunes like that i doubt he has alot of) and give you a refund. sounds to me that he is one of these types that like the ez money from the quick ez jobs but dosnt like or cant handle a challange, i've seen it tons of times in the automotive field.

so ya i guess atm its all kinda in his and your lap to make your desisions and then go from there. what i have said above is my honest opinion of this tuner, i'm thinking he is just after the easy money any way he can get it, i give him no credit for having any automotive knowledge whatsoever if he cant answer the simple why cant it be run in closed loop, whats wrong with it?.. if he at least had a good reason i might even agree with him but as i see it atm its all like i said just $500 worth of pure B.S.

first step in any tune is knowing what you want, what you expect, compremises you are willing to make to achive that goal. and im not so sure you have that sorted out even yet. is a wot tune really all your after? what do you want is the first question i guess you should have answered to yourself.

sorry to be so harsh everyone but i'm just calling it how i see it

**ony** · 08-16-2013

eagle mark answered the why to much timming.

**ZEDRATED** · 08-16-2013

Here is the log, car runs horrible when cold again like the previous $6E bins, stutters and bogs when releasing the clutch. After about a 5 minute drive it runs better but still not 100%. Stutter spots at low rpm under load and still a rich smelling exhaust. I know many of you said that the previous $6E bins I posted up here aren't right but once the car got warm with those bins it really ran good but just horrible when cold. I will post the previous $6E bin up again here to that the first tuner did for me. Thanks.

**ZEDRATED** · 08-16-2013

here is the log for the $6EAugust14 bin

**ZEDRATED** · 08-16-2013

Here is the first $6E bin that the first tuner tried that runs great and doesn't smell to rich when warm but runs bad and bogs out when cold and log in tts datamaster. Any reason why this bin wont run good when cold?

**xtreamvette69** · 08-16-2013

Originally Posted by ZEDRATED

Here is the first $6E bin that the first tuner tried that runs great and doesn't smell to rich when warm but runs bad and bogs out when cold and log in tts datamaster. Any reason why this bin wont run good when cold?

i have never saw a log from it idt but my best guess is like everyone has said..because its all wrong, i assume what is happening is its all wrong so in open loop it has no feedback to straiten it out but in closed loop the ecm has feedback and therefore tries to straiten it out best it can.

and as for your recent tooners bin, i'm guessing like everyone told you.. it will run right under the exact conditions it was tuned under(which it does you say) so it does exactly as he intended. now if it had been done correctly so it could go into closed loop and self adjust it would run good in most all conditions.. now i know that your going to say, closed loop wont help the cold start running and your correct it wont but if it would have been tuned properly instead of tuning for only ideal at running temp wot running then it would run correctly even cold.

as i said everything has to be a matched package, gotta start with the borring lame simple stuff like idle first... no great building stands without the lowly great foundation just as no tune can be great without a great foundation to build upon as well.

also just a note to something i have been noticing alot when you speak of bins, you use the settling words alot like..almost, not too bad, not as rich, not too rich.

all i keep interpeting from these descriptions is that the perticular bin your talking about at the time is not as bad as the last failed non working bin.
being better then the last fail bin doesnt make it a good bin.

**Six_Shooter** · 08-16-2013

Originally Posted by xtreamvette69

i have never saw a log from it idt but my best guess is like everyone has said..because its all wrong, i assume what is happening is its all wrong so in open loop it has no feedback to straiten it out but in closed loop the ecm has feedback and therefore tries to straiten it out best it can.

and as for your recent tooners bin, i'm guessing like everyone told you.. it will run right under the exact conditions it was tuned under(which it does you say) so it does exactly as he intended. now if it had been done correctly so it could go into closed loop and self adjust it would run good in most all conditions.. now i know that your going to say, closed loop wont help the cold start running and your correct it wont but if it would have been tuned properly instead of tuning for only ideal at running temp wot running then it would run correctly even cold.

as i said everything has to be a matched package, gotta start with the borring lame simple stuff like idle first... no great building stands without the lowly great foundation just as no tune can be great without a great foundation to build upon as well.

also just a note to something i have been noticing alot when you speak of bins, you use the settling words alot like..almost, not too bad, not as rich, not too rich.

all i keep interpeting from these descriptions is that the perticular bin your talking about at the time is not as bad as the last failed non working bin.
being better then the last fail bin doesnt make it a good bin.

Yep. This is why when I tune someones car, I do it over several sessions and try to get different conditions to get it averaged. I especially try to get at least one session that is all about cold start. Though I try to do that every time, if I can, unless cold start is not an issue at all.

**xtreamvette69** · 08-16-2013

and as for the log.. all i can say right off first impressions is WOW!! couldnt he get it any richer for a base

and i like how lean it goes when accelerating i saw times below 31, no idea o2 could even go that low lol. all this time i been trying to get very lil swing from the o2 sensor as possible, i didnt know the goal was as much swing as possible.. figures i been doing it all wrong.
with 3.00 pulse widths at idle though idk what else he was going for besides rich

and as you were told pay attention to when you have the knock counts at where your timing is and then figure in that is just the timing the ecm knows about not including the other about 5* there that it knows nothing about and cant control.

again all i can say is wow.. he is all over the board rich rich rich lean.. i'm not one to prag but tbh i have to say this seeing how he is a pro making $500. a tune and that is my tune was more on the right track than this finished one is tbh... just amazing to watch this log, thanks for sharing .

**xtreamvette69** · 08-16-2013

yep six-shooter but not as great of profit in doing it right as you cant do 3or 4 or more cars in a day @$500. your way

tbh though i do seriously feel sorry for ZED, i feel his pain and frustration. its bad enough to feel that frustration when doing it yourself and hitting walls, but to keep throwing money to supposed pros to just do it right and get it over with and get shafted instead.. i'm betting that is painfull frustration as well.